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AML

therallyforum.myfastforum.org

I would like to raise a complaint regarding the above forum as it would appear that both my husband and myself along with Dunfermline Car Club Ltd (DCC) and the Scottish Tarmack Rally Championship (STRC) are constantly mentioned with defamitory comments by several of it's members. I can confirm the one of the posters, the instigator of all said posts "Corsa" real name David Hatrick is already subject to legal action regarding similar comments on another forum, that said other forum is also subject to the same litigation by our club. Mr Hatrick has a personal grudge as his club membership was revoked in 2006 and he was excluded from the championship at the same time for bring our sport into disrepute on other forums, he and a couple of others that post on this forum have also been barred from our own forum for the same and attacking other members.

On registering for this and many other forums, there are terms and condition to read and you sign to state that you agree to abide by said rules and the following is what you sign to agree to to join this forum.....

While the administrators and moderators of this forum will attempt to remove or edit any generally objectionable material as quickly as possible, it is impossible to review every message. Therefore you acknowledge that all posts made to these forums express the views and opinions of the author and not the administrators, moderators or webmaster (except for posts by these people) and hence will not be held liable.

You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed). The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that the webmaster, administrator and moderators of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should they see fit. As a user you agree to any information you have entered above being stored in a database. While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent the webmaster, administrator and moderators cannot be held responsible for any hacking attempt that may lead to the data being compromised.

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By clicking Register below you agree to be bound by these conditions.

I was of the belief that forums were "information highways" for companies, clubs etc in order that they can promote themselves and keep others informed as to what was new, going on etc and not to "slag off" other forums, clubs and to personally abuse others simply because one or more individuals have a personal grudge to bear.

I am sure that this matter can be dealt with promptly and professionally as I have now downloaded the aforementioned defamitory threads as we are now going to be raising a personal legal action on the top of the one already under way.

I await your reply with interest.

Angela Luke
Bravo

Quote:
If you are reporting a forum, then we assume you have evidence to support the report, in the form of links, names, ip addresses etc.

You *MUST* post the evidence, we cannot act on being told a forum is in breach of the conditions without links to where and why.

Keep it clear and keep it simple. At least one report of a claimed violation ended up falling on death ears, when no one could clearly decypher from pages of rambling just what the issue was and where the blame was  



Taken from here
admin (no pm's please)

You will have to provide links to threads that are an issue.

If we consider them to be malign then we may suspend the forum.

If they are simply a matter of a dispute between you and the forum owners, then it is a matter for you to dispute with the forum owners.
Bravo

I did have a quick look at the forum, I found this thread which does seem to contradict the information given in the first post:

The site admin wrote:
I can confirm that this forum was set up as Driveshaft states to provide an alternative,unbiased view on all aspects of Rallying with minimal moderating.
In no way was it set up to attack any individuals as that would not be worth the time and wasted effort.


If there are the 'slagging off' threads, please provide links so that it may be looked at properly.
AML

Here are three threads;

http://therallyforum.myfastforum.org/STRC_AGM_3_2_08_about102.html

http://therallyforum.myfastforum....y_Championship_2008_about120.html

http://therallyforum.myfastforum....vel_change_required__about66.html

and here is another thread from when I contacted the forum moderator to ask that offending threads be removed. We as a club/championship and personally have no problems with factual posts but none of these thread are in fact factual, hence the legal action.

http://therallyforum.myfastforum.org/Accurate_Posting_about39.html
admin (no pm's please)

There is nothing there we can act on.

People are raising in a fairly reasonable fashion what they say are legitimate grievances. You say they are not.

We obviously have no idea, hence it is up to you to deal with them.
AML

So you think that defamitory comments and accusation of stealing etc is ok to put on public forums?

I am dissapointed but will now continue to go down the legal route.
admin (no pm's please)

It is only a problem if it is false, and that is between you and them.

Where would we be if peoples freedom to expose things could be squashed in this casual way?
AML

I have no problem with freedom of speech if the speech is in fact factual but all that is on that forum are personal attacks of defamitory comments, accusation that no-one comes forward with except for on these forums and inuendo's that sadly are taken on board by those that know no better.

Freedom of speech is one thing, factual reporting is another but then I shouldn't have expected any less. I wonder why they chose to host their forum here?
Symon

AML wrote:
and inuendo's that sadly are taken on board by those that know no better.


AML wrote:
but then I shouldn't have expected any less. I wonder why they chose to host their forum here?


Pot calling kettle black  
admin (no pm's please)

It might also be noted here that several long threads may have been linked to, but the complainant has not actually given anything specific at all. Where are the specifics, and where is it said what action has been taken?

Where also is the recognition that we cannot judge the truth of what is being said?
AML

If you are saying that you are NOT prepared to do anything, wher can I find the information on who owns the site?
Bravo

Looking at the threads shown, I would say this is a very well and fairly run forum.  An example would be:

Quote:
Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:35 pm  

CORSA  

EDITED BY ADMIN,PLEASE ONLY STATE FACTS THAT YOU ARE 100% SURE OF



Quote:
GMC i am not a spoilsport as you may well have got the idea by now i like the forum to self moderate, it`s just i like to see the fact and NOT speculation


Looks very fair indeed.

As to other posts, such as stating that waitresses etc were brought in to make up the numbers...how on Earth could MFF determine the truth of that?  Not possible.  So, there is nothing at all in the threads posted that breaks any MFF T&C.

MFF has been, and will be, totally fair in any dispute and will look at every case from all sides, feel free to read past complaints, they are here for all to see.  So if you can point to something more sinister, it will be dealt with appropriately.
Symon

AML wrote:
If you are saying that you are NOT prepared to do anything, wher can I find the information on who owns the site?


Please do not try and distort the truth here, is it not precisely that , which you are complaining  about ?

Admin has said all along that we require you to give us the proof to uphold your complaint.

Quote:
admin (no pm's please)
   PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:17 pm    Post subject:


   You will have to provide links to threads that are an issue.

   If we consider them to be malign then we may suspend the forum.

   If they are simply a matter of a dispute between you and the forum owners, then it is a matter for you to dispute with the forum owners.
admin (no pm's please)

I will email the site owner the link to the thread, and request they PM me contact details.

Forum owners cannot hide behind anonymity, they are legally responsible for what they allow to be posted.

They can however refuse to have details passed to you in which case I would pass on details only in the event of a letter from a solicitor.
AML

You are probably wasting you time there as I have just been informed that the site owner is in fact David Hatrick himself and that he is at least 6 different people on his own site, the 6 that seem to speak to each other and raise all these inuendo's.

Quote:
Admin has said all along that we require you to give us the proof to uphold your complaint.


The whole three threads are offensive to not only myself but to my club and championship and even with one complaint, the threads should be removed until such adverse comments can be proved to be factual.

There may be no proof that what they are saying is untrue but then there is nothing to indicate that what they say is factual either.

We also run a forum but we believe that a complain is a complaint and if someone contacts us with one, we act especially on threads which cause upset to someone personally.

This is not not new, he has carried this tirade of abuse on other forums for two years, only difference being that they acted on the complaints received, hence the reason for starting up another forum.

I have checked and forum owners are open to the same litigation as the poster of the offensive thread/s and simply posting
Quote:
Therefore you acknowledge that all posts made to these forums express the views and opinions of the author and not the administrators, moderators or webmaster (except for posts by these people) and hence will not be held liable.
does not relieve the owners of that liability.
Bravo

AML wrote:
You are probably wasting you time there as I have just been informed that the site owner is in fact David Hatrick himself and that he is at least 6 different people on his own site, the 6 that seem to speak to each other and raise all these inuendo's.


That statement alone is far worse than anything you have yet complained about.  Here you have named him and further accused of things without proof.

From what you have said, we would have to remove your complaint, now wouldn't we?

It has been stated several times, a request for the actual posts that you are complaining about, yet you have offered nothing.  Show what you are complaining about, it's perfectly simple!
AML

I would edit my post now that a complaint has been made but apparently you only have 20 minutes in which to do so on this forum.

Funny how you think me naming someone on here is a justifiable complaint and yet when myself and others are named on the forum threads I am complaining about, that's not a justfiable complaint.

I will get my solicitor to contact Martin whom I believe is your forum owner for the details.
EVO555

All, i am aware that there is a conflict of interest and debate on this forum just now and i am trying to keep an eye on how threads are progressing and moderate where required.

There are obviously people who do not get on with each other and i do believe that is all it is.

I would welcome any specific bullet points of any factual wrongs that have been posted to enable me to review and deal with accordingly whether it be editing or deleting the thread.

This forum may not be the busiest in the world of Motorsport but it is interesting and more members are joining by the day and the post count is increasing by the day as well.The hot topics are obviousley an interest to many given the new members joining and current members posting.

Only 1 appears to have a problem !

If i can be of any more assistance please contact me.

Hammy.
admin (no pm's please)

We have also now asked a number of times for specific issues and they have not been properly stated.

EVO555 - are you the forum owner?
admin (no pm's please)

AML wrote:
I would edit my post now that a complaint has been made but apparently you only have 20 minutes in which to do so on this forum.

Funny how you think me naming someone on here is a justifiable complaint and yet when myself and others are named on the forum threads I am complaining about, that's not a justfiable complaint.

I will get my solicitor to contact Martin whom I believe is your forum owner for the details.


The edit rule prevents people revising what has been said here.

e.g. thus far anyone reading can see that you have provided absolutely nothing we could reasonably work with.
EVO555

admin (no pm's please) wrote:
We have also now asked a number of times for specific issues and they have not been properly stated.

EVO555 - are you the forum owner?


Yes I am the forum owner !
admin (no pm's please)

thanks, I'd ask you then to PM me details, they will not be passed on except to a solicitor.

Meanwhile I see you have done the right thing and asked for workable bullet points, and if these should ever be given in a form that can be worked on, it may be considered appropriate to edit those posts.

There is a difference between considered editing though, and giving in to what so far is coming across as aggressive bullying. e.g. We have seen threats on this thread but very little workable substance.
AML

Specific issues......

STRC/DCC AGM

1. The DCC AGM (the STRC does not have one) was and never has been a closed AGM, the DCC AGM, like all other businesses and club AGM's must be open to ALL it's paid up members and it was with no "vetting".  Anyone with even the slightest knowledge of business would know that.

To give ALL the clubs members a chance to vote or comment even if they could not attend the AGM, a form was sent to ALL members two months prior to the AGM to let them know of the date, who from the existing committee wished to nominate themselves for a position and offereing all the members the opportunity to attend/not attend, agree with any/all the committee nominations and to either nominate themselves or any other paid up member for ANY of the positions.

2. No waitresses, dogs or any other animal for that matter were ever enlisted to the committee, a simple joke was made once when referring to a quorum.

3. As for "Corsa" being kicked out of places for no apparent reason, he was never kicked out but simply asked to leave by a couple of the committee as he was given a platform to have the apology heard that he said he was there to give, only to deceive the committee by making out he was going to then changing tact, therefor asking for to be heard under false pretences.

4. There were other members of the club present at the AGM, as well as returned forms and an overwhelming majority voted for the committee that now is.

SCOTTISH TARMACK RALLY CHAMPIONSHIP

1. This "Rocket Man" is obviously not a committee member of DCC as it is myself that does the entries for both the events and the championship and until the AGM on Sunday, no-one knew how many entries there were for any of them.

2. 100% of the registration fee goes to the club for the running of the championship and is NOT used to keep either of us in the manor we are accustomed to, we have businesses for that.
That comment alone is defamitory.

3.
Quote:
Gerry and I registered with the STRC this week for the first time in a couple of years due to various reasons and this year we have continued to get good support and cash from all of our sponsors.

So we filled in the appropriate form all correct and promptly sent off the cheque on Wednesday.

Only to have a letter back today with the form and the cheque telling us that we are not getting to register and not allowed to compete in any strc event.

Well there you go folks, not only if you speak out against the issues in question and get banned from a forum you also get banned from competing.

So the lessons to be learnt are as follows;

if you want to enjoy your sport................Dont disagree with the strc committee

if you want to join scotlands premier club.............Dont disagree with the strc committee.

If you want to join a forum of a strc championship.............dont speak out of turn and agree to everything the committee say.

So the moral of the story is if you are seen with a strc sticker on your car then do not even think about questioning a decision or any involvement in the strc cos you will be banned from everything.

Its not going away folks just think about it.


The letter that was sent returning said registration only enclosed one registration as the drivers registration was acceptable.

His registration along with his membership application was returned as nothing had changed since 2006 when his membership was revoked and he was excluded from the champiosnhip at which time both his membership and championship registration fee was returned in full. He was given the opportunity to aplologise to both the club and the championship and had he done so, he would have had both reinstated, he refused, his choice.

At no point in that letter did it mention anything about not being allowed to compete in any DCC or STRC event, firstly, we as a club would accept any legal entry and we have no say in who can run in other clubs events.

Each year every championship has competitors disagreeing with something that they either don't understand or that they are unhappy about, we listen to what is said and if it is felt that there is a need for change, we do our best, a championship evolves over time and the need for change changes from year to year. Normally competitors if disagreeing with something would approach either the club or the championship representatives to express their thoughts but there is, as can clearly be seen to those that know what's going on, one individual that is not happy to do that and feels the need to vent off on public forums.

4.
Quote:
If you applied to the club and got a reply in a week, then it couldn't have been a committee decision, time scale is to short.


The committee made that decision in 2006 as as nothing had changed, the decsion still stood as before.

5. The last post from "Corsa" insinuates that my husband and myself have used club/championship funds to purchase our two cars, camera equipment and our home, this is also a defamitory post and totally untrue. He has been insinuating this for two years now and I can assure you if he had any evidence to prove what he say's, he would have used it by now, so why does he not, I'll tell you why because he knows that he had lied from the start, just look at the stupid lie about the letter I sent.

The clubs "Statement of Accounts" are done at the end of each financial year as required by law and are independantly audited and submitted to companies house. 2007's figures have been completed and show the club in the best financial position it has been in for years. A copy of those accounts are available to ALL club members and can be dowloaded from companies house.

STRC-HIGH LEVEL CHANGE REQUIRED

1.
Quote:
Isnt the STRC promoted as a friendly championship and the DCC as a friendly club? By all accounts it seems to be the opposite under it's current regime.

What about all the new events we have been promised? Apparently events have even been lost due to the actions of a certain person trying to dicatate the rules and regs!

I thought the club was supposed to be run as a democracy, not like a dictatorship with a certain lady acting like Joseph Stalin. Come on, its 2007 noot 1929 Russia.


The STRC is a very friendly championship, you only need to ask it's competitors. As for events that have been promised, we are currently still working on other possible events, as for losing the one that we lost, we lost that one because 5000 troops needed to use it to train for the war in Iraq.

The club is a very democratic and professional club.

2.
Quote:
Im my honest opinion i think the people at the level which is in discussion at this present time and the poll is referring have done a fantastic job in the time they have been there with the exception of i would say the last two years.

That is his personal opinion.

Their hearts and minds are rallying and i think genuinly have the sport at heart but and its a very big but,they have some how worked themselves into a position whereby no one dares question what they do or more importantly the desisions they make.

Correct, we are very passionate about the sport and what happens to it. As for the other part, committee's don't agree all the time and we have to agree to differ at points but we do agree as a committee to go with the majority vote, in the case of your membership being revoked, it was an overwhelming majority, 18 on the committee, 3 abstained and 1 voted to keep you in, now that's a majority, if it had went the other way, you would still be a member.

The only ones that I am aware are left on the committee are the ones that are either too scared to leave for fear of abuse,the ones who just get on with rallying or the ones that are part of well whatever is the main reason they stay where they are.

The only abuse that the committee have had or are likely to get is when they disagree with you not me and after seeing the torrent of abuse I  and others have had over the past two years, I don't blame them.

What is the point in having a committee when only the 4 directors can make and believe me DO make the final decisions therefore railroading the remainder of the committee?? I ask the question then why are they there is it just to make up the numbers?

There are only four directors, now 5 and that has been the case since 2001 but then you were the one that made that happen and you were part of that committee that voted for it to be that way.....funny that.

These people know who they are and the longer this goes on the more they alienate from the rest of the community and word is growing fast belive me.

Your right about the word growing fast but it's not the word that you think.

What people have to bear in mind when posting on any forum,website,blog call them what you want you CANNOTT be held responsible for ANYTHING you write, the only way you can get done so to speak is if someone physically watches you type some derogatory comment about a certain person otherwise type away without fear of any heavy handed threats.

Not so, the poster and the site owner and I repeat the words from the solicitior, "are both open to the same litigation"

It is time for a change and maybe all these people who want the exsisting committee out will come forward and get involved to drive forward this car club and championship then so be it I for one will be at the fron of the queue.Maybe there is still a position for the people on the committee but NOT as high ranking as they are just now.

Your right about it being time for a change but it's not the change you speak of, the change that is required is for you to stop bringing the sport that we all love into disrepute by your constant bombardment of defamitory comments on public forums. You say your gripe is personal on other forums, so if it's me you have a personal gripe with, get some and come to my door and leave our sport alone.

( CORSA)


As for the votes on the site......really.

3.
Quote:
Additionally, anyone who questions their actions is either alienated or booted out the club/committee. - allegedly!


The person asked to leave the committee was deemed "not to be acting in the clubs best interest", that person had made similar insinuations after listening continually to lies, causing doubts regarding events amongst other things, all that person said was taken on board and every single item raised was quashed by responses in writing from those person/s, clubs mentioned. I for one do not blame that person as it is true that if you hear something ofetn enough, some will start to believe it.

You know there is a web site in relation to cyber bullying and here is something they say,

Most organisations have a serial bully. It never ceases to amaze me how one person's
divisive, disordered, dysfunctional behaviour can permeate the entire organisation like
a cancer."

Very true in this case.

Hopefully this will answer a few questions and now maybe something will be done about these threads, the legal action will continue regardless but I do think they should be removed and not locked and an agreement made that only factual posts be allowed on this forum and that proof be provided when discussing DCC, STRC and it members and committee in future.
AML

Does nobody wish to reply now I've give specific's?
admin (no pm's please)

This is largely between you and them, and sensible practice is to give 48 hours for action to be taken, as far as I am aware action has been taken at the site, though that is just what I think when I looked at the site.

So we are essentially in a position where if after a reasonable time you are unable to resolve your differences, it is up to you to take whatever action you see fit. If  I receive a solicitors letter and the owner has not provided me with the details for them to be held to their legal responsibility I will shut the site down, otherwise your solicitors and the owner will be put in touch.

It does as I say seem to me looking at the site that they are taking reasonable steps, but that you did not really respond to the request for clear bullet points, but gave yet another long missive that whilst more informative would still have made their life difficult in terms of acting. There is a big difference between dealing with a few possibly actionable lies, and trying to clamp down on opinion that whether it is wrong or not is peoples right to express.
AML

What have they done......locked the thread, it is still an offensive, defamitory thread that insinuates serious wrong doings with funds that do not belong to me, locking the threads does nothing but stop others commenting on those threads whilst still allowing others to read them.

The correct thing to do would be to remove those offending threads so that others could not see them, after all, none of them are factual and I live in the real world.

My solicitor is working on matters at the moment and will be in touch for those details.
admin (no pm's please)

Unfortunately four requests for the owner details, details that would only have been disclosed to a solicitor have basically been refused.

This means I have no choice but to suspend the forum. We still have no view on the rights or wrongs of the situation, but when an owner refuses to take legal responsibility our hand is forced.
AML

Thank you.
St0rm[TitE]

i've been reading this topic from the start and to me it's just in house squabling.
AML

Can't be "in house" as I'm not "in their house", there is clear "Defamation of Character", according to the law, all it takes is for "one person to recognise who it is that is being spoken about".

All that's left for me to say it that I sincerely hope that it never happens to you or your family, this has been going on for two years, it's commonly called "Cyber Bullying" on other sites.

Banter is banter and we all have a sense of humour and anyone else that knows me will vouch for that with the exception of one but that one person, who was at least 6/7 others on his own site has totally lost it and gone far too far.

I can only hope that you will take similar complaints from others more seriously, more sensitive people have committed suicide for less so I hope you sit up and take note. After all, this is peoples lives, family and livelihoods we are speaking about and whilst that obviously means nothing to some it means everything to others.
Bravo

The way I see it, ample time was given to 'Hammy' to respond to this thread, and he knew of its existence.  He failed to respond, so he lost.

A fair hearing was given here in my opinion.
admin (no pm's please)

In plain and simple terms if there is any legal cloud over a forum however far fetched, we need to be in possession of verifiable ownership details, details that will only be passed on to the proper authorities.

This was asked for several times and not received. This can only be seen as a refusal to take responsibility for a forums contents, and that gives us no choice but to suspend the forum.

That process is entirely non judgmental, it is simply common sense.
St0rm[TitE]

to me, you seem to have an obsession with this person.
admin (no pm's please)

I am locking this now, ample time has been given for anything to be said.

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