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| kaz |
http://countryways.myfreeforum.orgWe wish to make a complaint of constant forum and personal harassment against a number of members of http://countryways.myfreeforum.orgBelow is a current thread on countryways. http://countryways.myfreeforum.org/Email_Harrassment_about4889.html It is one of numerous similar threads that have appeared on there over the last 12 months. Please take the time to look at it in it's entirety. This has gone way beyond any inter-forum squabble. We have totally ignored and failed to respond to anything that has been done or said about our forum during the last 12 months but enough is enough. On this thread members of our family have been openly accused of illegal activity (page 7) and four of our family members have been openly insulted (they start on our children on pages 8 - 9). We do need help in this matter and hope that you feel that you can take some action regarding it. The harassement of the forum has been constant for 12 months. Please feel free to access our Staff Room at http://overthegate.myfreeforum.org where all the interference from countryways over the last 12 months is documented. Here are some of the other threads on the forum that are directed at us. http://countryways.myfreeforum.org/ftopic4990-0-asc-0.php http://countryways.myfreeforum.org/ftopic4528-0-asc-0.php http://countryways.myfreeforum.org/Haunting__about4350.html http://countryways.myfreeforum.or..._Guide_to_Fitness__about4280.html http://countryways.myfreeforum.or...is_for_coincidence_about4605.html We have tried to ignore what has been going on on the Countryways forum but have also been bombarded with malicious and false members registering. Below is a list of these registered names and their IPs since January. 38 119 107 114 OTG is a sinking ship Bum Love Grim Reaper Andy Pandy wantsomegreenwellies greenwelliesrule dropping like flies This forum is haunted Mrs wobble wobbly Haunted forum? Deerstalkeresque spectral shenannigans 66 55 143 198 capt botty slapper 67 228 101 165 pink sausage sucker bob mcnobber tosser bollocks 78 146 52 17 Wellthatdidntworkdidit? 81 132 167 128 philmypockets 82 10 92 205 Postman Pat 86 166 140 152 Liver Cake Me! Mac the Knife 195 178 107 95 Doris Stokes 208 53 157 16 rattly chains A few weeks ago their member Quixote admitted in his signature, which has since been removed, to being responsible for trolling the forum using the name mactheknife. If you look at the signatures and interests of most of the members involved, they are also aimed against our forum. Bringing this to MFF is not something that we have done lightly. We do feel intimidated and are not looking forward to the retaliation that we know will be forthcoming. |
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| admin (no pm's please) |
This forum has how been temporarily suspended.
This has been done on two grounds. 1) By elevating this inter forum squabble to an announcement, they are pretty much announcing that this squabble is a major part of the forums existence. This falls foul of our hate site rules. 2) There are threads that are a clear incitement to go and cause trouble on overthegate. This is also an offense that will cause forum suspension. I know that there is going to be complaints that this is not one sided, and if there are similar threads on overthegate then it will be dealt with in the same fashion. To get the forum back I want a clear assurance by the forum admins that ALL such threads will be removed and that they will start running a forum and not nursery school. |
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| quixote |
Well, I don't really know how to respond to the above accusations without getting into all sorts of a tangle.............
Although I'm not admin on CW, I've been given permission to respond on his behalf pending his return. This 'inter-forum' squabble isn't entirely one-sided, and is more or less a direct result of OTG admins' repeated & determined attempts to both undermine & sabotage certain other forums.........for example, the domain names for the forum I was admin' with (www.greenwellies.net) have been bought up by OTG admin to prevent us renewing our domain, or registering the forum under a different affix. Members from GW have been repeatedly PM'd by OTG admin in poaching attempts to denigrate GW membership. We have noticed that no sooner did a new member register on GW then they appeared on OTG.................as a result of this, GW has been forced to shut down due to lack of posters. We have not complained to MFF. In addition, OTG has a membership base that largely consists of 'ghost' members, created merely to increase the apparent membership base. Including a member by the name of 'Deerstalker'.................who's been dead for over a year, but still appears to be active! We have not made a complaint. The insistence that this 'interference' has been continuous & unrelenting for 12 months is absolute nonsense...............the antics of OTG admin have been extremely effective in annoying many many members on both GW, CW and other forums..................evidence can be provided that by the admin of 'Calnetalk' that OTG admin has attempted to hack in to the admin area of a local forum with no other intention than to destroy the forum. Again, no complaints have been made to MFF. CW admin has a recent voicemail message left by OTG admin that was neither welcome, nor solicited. The content I am not at liberty to disclose, but which I'm certain will be made available to MFF admin if necessary. Despite that fact that this voicemail was left with the intention of creating & causing unrest & dismay, no complaint was made to MFF. There are many more incidents & occasions where OTG admin have been guilty of actions intended to denigrate & destroy forums, but I shall leave them to those who have more in-depth knowledge of the exact circumstances. In addition, the accusation levelled that I personally was responsible for the actions of an OTG member 'Mactheknife' is libellious. No such admission was made, and any inference drawn is insulting, and potentially actionable.................. This complaint, in my view, is petty and frivolous. To summarise, OTG admin members have: Actively poached members from other sites in a deliberate attempt to force the other forum to close Repeatedly PM'd Greenwellies senior admin despite requests to stop Purchased all domain names resulting in the intended demise of a forum Left unsolicited & unwelcome voice messages Created a forum consisting almost entirely of ghost members (which contravenes MFF terms & conditions) Illegally attempted to hack in to the admin-only area of a rival site Levelled unproven accusations at myself personally Persistently harrassed members of CW admins family Persistently allowed OTG members to harrass CW admin family members via MSN, despite repeated requests to stop I look forward to reading other posts relating to OTG behavour................. |
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| Bravo |
If you see another forum breaching the T&C you should report it in the correct manner, NOT by making your own forum even worse!
The points stated by Admin above must first be sorted out, any complaints should be done in the correct manner, read this to make a full report: http://forum.myfreeforum.org/about1096.html |
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| quixote |
With regard to the above quote , surely Countryways has absolutely no case to answer!? As far as I can see, the statement by MFF admin settles the matter & I'd expect that this can be put to bed forthwith, & CW restored.......................? I would also like to point out that the section of th T&C post referred to contains reference to IP addresses?
It being the case that OTG have made reference to several IP addresses in their complaint, I would like to point out the basic error in their assumption that IP identification is conclusive in identifying any individual making any post, on any online media? Their assumption that pulling IP addresses from their admin panel is conclusive proof of wrongdoing is amateurish & incorrect............thousands of users can share the same IP address depending on location, so the inclusion of these cannot be taken as evidence of wrongdoing in any case. My impression is that MFF expect any comlaints to be valid, factually correct & to contain concrete proof of actual wrongdoing in relation to T&C breaches. I can see no such 'evidence' in OTGs complaint, despite the loud & petulant manner in which they have chosen to make it. Their 'complaint' consists of a series of half-formed assumptions, based on anecdotal evidence at best, insulting inferences, and 'supported' by links that cannot be accessed as their forum appears closed to non-members. |
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| Bravo |
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| Graham The Builder |
Two phrases come to mind when reading Kaz's post; Let he who has not sinned throw the first stone and Don't throw stones in glass houses.
I have been out most of the day but was alerted to this topic via phone, and it doesn't disappoint. It is nothing short of laughable and utterly contemptible. It is a well known fact that the admin of OTG bought up the domain names for Green Wellies and then poached its member-base by covertly PMing them using aliases created by them - something they are now accusing members of Countrways of doing. This complaint is nothing more than sour grapes by the Overthegate admin because quite a few of their members have now severed their links to Overthegate and come to Countryways. I would have thought a quiet word in the ear of the Countryways admin would sufficed but this has been blown out of proportion with the forum temporarily suspended. Something which I am sure will put a smile on the Overthegate admin's face. |
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| quixote |
With regard to: Point 1..............to assume that CWs existance is largely-based on petty squabbling against another forum is pretty insulting. The forum content on CW is varied, interesting, informative, factually-correct & contributed by in the greatest part by people who are actually heavily-involved in the pursuits they post about. If we are to go down the route of comparison, I would respectfully suggest that the content & quality of both sites is further viewed in order to fully-ascertain which forum most closely adheres to the spirit of MFF T&Cs? Point 2..............there are no threads on CW that exist in order to 'incite trouble'. The level of banter falls a good way way short of what is to be found in every public house and workplace across the land. It appears that OTG have spent a good deal of time on CW collating these links in order to make a formal issue out of their self-inflicted unpopularity. Bearing in mind their admins recent threats regarding 'copyright' it appears that they're fully-prepared (when it suits them) to compromise the principles they purport to hold so dear................ |
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| Graham The Builder |
Can a counter claim be made against Overthegate for their spamming of GWBT members, thus eventually destroying a thriving forum?
Your law: "You may not spam members with frequent emails, or otherwise promote your forum via mass spam emailing, or any other form of spamming." |
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| admin (no pm's please) |
My point one about "hate forums" is marginal but stands. You are announcing your inter forum squabble thus making it an important part of your forums existence. This must stop.
Point two. Don't take me for a fool. I have read clear incitements to make trouble in your threads. This is totally unacceptable. As for counter complaints, as I have already made clear I know this is not one sided, and if given evidence such a thread links and not hearsay it will be acted on. |
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| Graham The Builder |
A quick search of this section of the forum can soon produce similar complaints made by Kaz. It does make you wonder why the same person feels the need to vent her angst every once in a while. 
http://forum.myfreeforum.org/sutra103778.php&highlight=#103778 http://forum.myfreeforum.org/sutra94238.php&highlight=#94238 http://forum.myfreeforum.org/sutra85160.php&highlight=#85160 http://forum.myfreeforum.org/sutra88159.php&highlight=#88159 |
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| quixote |
Didn't intent to. I don't agree with you...............there may be occasions during threads where comments are made with the express purpose of annoying certain individuals. But, according to your own T&C this cannot be construed as sufficiently-prevalent to constitute reason for complaint. I do notice that no response has been made by OTG admin regarding our counter-accusation though............ This is now reaching the realms of ridiculous. I've stated previously that I'm not admin of CW, so bearing that in mind I'm not in a position to make changes to the forums thread structure (not that I actually think it's necessary based on what I've read here) I think the suspension of the forum is over the top & unreasonable given the circumstances. However, there's nothing more of any substance I can add to this thread until CW admin is available for comment |
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| admin (no pm's please) |
There is direct incitement by Lloyd to use proxy servers to cause trouble on other forums, this alone would result in any forum being suspended. | ||||||
| quixote |
Is that the only example? If that's the case, then we've gone from the scenario of CW being labelled a 'hate site' to the issue being one that's derived from one individual comment?
In any case, regardless of any inferences (to which I have already made reference as being inadmissible as direct proof) I cannot recall any post on the forum encouraging any form of harrassment directly aimed at OTG. Pedantic, perhaps, but that is the factual case nonetheless. If your actions are (as stated in the T&C) based upon what can be factually proven than I think it's an extremely heavy-handed course of action to suspend the forum based on this complaint................ I have a slight concern as to your ability to remain objective in this circumstance, based upon an assumption taken from your reference to 'knowing Kaz well enough' in the following thread (another complaint from OTG) http://forum.myfreeforum.org/sutra94238.php&highlight=#94238 In order to resolve this matter, & end the inconvenience to CW members, can you let us have a statement that clearly indicates what immediate action you require in order for the forum's suspension to be lifted? |
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| Graham The Builder |
Wouldn't a quick word with CW's admin have been a more reasonable way of amending the offending post rather than suspending the whole forum?? I certainly don't think your a fool, Mr Admin but this site does contradict itself sometimes. I made a similar complaint to Kaz's about a year ago and it is quite interesting to see the outcome of that! http://forum.myfreeforum.org/sutra107190.php&highlight=#107190 Bravo's bold statement at the end says it all! Please note that inter forum squabbles, bad behavior by admins and mods, or even some odd individual threads that contain hateful material are not grounds for a complaint. If you don't like behavior on a forum, then the best thing to do is to leave that forum. We will not micro manage forums or play referee in disputes. |
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| Bravo |
The result from your link. Your complaint was looked into and found to be short of sufficient evidence against the T&C. This case is different as your forum is clearly in breach of the T&C. Your forum has been suspended, as admin states it will be happily reinstated should offending material be removed and re-occurrences prevented. We are not taking sides in your dispute, we don't care about that one way or the other. We also are not 'out to get' your forum, we would like all forums to grow and prosper, we simply ask that you abide by the T&C. Here a mistake has been made, your forum has gone too far and the reins are being pulled in. You can dispute it until you are blue in the face but the top man has deemed it to be in breach and he's said what you need to do. The ball is in your court. |
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| admin (no pm's please) |
We hold these discussions in public so anyone can see if we are being fair and objective.
Your complaint seems to have been based on your view about unfairness in the way a forum was run, and as stated at the time we take no stance on how well/badly/fairly/unfairly a forum is run. This suspension was made a clear cut decision on the basis of a singe thread, a thread that incites your members to use proxy servers to stir up trouble on another forum. Any forum doing this will be treated the exact same way. Under current legislations such threads can be considered incitement to commit a crime under the computer misuse act. What I want are assurances that this will STOP. That you will put this squabble behind you and get on with running a forum. I have already said what needs to be done. I want threads relating to this squabble removed and for both forums to do the adult thing and if you can't get along to ignore each other. |
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| Graham The Builder |
Ok, that is fair enough but this seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut with the suspension. I am not an admin or a mod on CW but I know a man who is.  I'm sure this can all be resolved in next to no time and the offending article removed from the site so that we can all get back to some normallity.
The ball is in your court.
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| admin (no pm's please) |
The ball in in the court of your admin, to come here and give us the assurance we have asked for. | ||||||
| quixote |
The offending thread could've been removed by CW admin on recepit of an e-mail, surely? But in any case, the above statement conflicts with the reasons given in your first post:
Your admission that the 'hate site' decision is 'marginal' infers that the decision was made on a subjective interpretation of the circumstances, rather than on a clear-cut factual transgression of T&C. In any event, 'Point 1' now becomes moot. This statement makes no reference to 'current legislation' or 'criminal activity' (sic), nor do your T&C in consideration of the above. As far as I was aware (and I really don't know much about proxy servers) the thread (no longer 'threads') merely highlighted the fact that these utilities can be used? So again, no transgression of T&C was committed, as it was less a direct incitement and more a passing of freely-available information. With further reference to the Computer Misuse Act, Section 1, Paragraph 1, Part 'b' states that 'unauthorised access' is an offence in itself, punishable by up to 6 months in prison, as well as it being a seperate offence under the Data Protection Act..............if it can be shown that a forum admin has indeed attempted to such access, can assurances be given that the matter will be treated with a similar level of gravity shown to the complaint in this thread, whereby OTG admin are complaining about being called names? |
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| admin (no pm's please) |
This is all getting silly. I really don't think our T&C need to mention that incitement to criminal offenses is not allowed. That should be totally obvious, as it should also be obvious that any incitement to attack/spam other forums is not going to be tolerated. The T&C is a guide to be read by reasonable people as a set of rules they should follow.
Is it so hard to get your admin on here and get some assurance that we will see an end to this behavior from your forum? As already stated several times as well, I am not the slightest bit interested in this thread in your counter accusations against their forum. If there is a case then create a new thread with some solid facts and they will be considered. |
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| quixote |
It was 'silly' from its very inception! Of course the T&C exist as a guide to reasonable people, but if certain individuals choose to make an absolute fairground ride out of an issue that resulted from their own petty, immature & spiteful actions than this reaction is only to be expected! I would've thought that as admin of MFF you would have been able to instantly identify this as the nonsense it is, rather than create a situation whereby an entire thread has been created at the waste of an afternoon.............................. As far as the counter-accusations are concerned, I really couldn't care less about raising them. My time & effort is better spent in a productive manner,rather than attempting to gain a spiteful recompense for some imagined slight. My involvement in this thread was mainly to highlight the fact that the reasons for CW being suspended are in direct conflict with what yourself, and your published T&Cs actually state. At present CW admin is away from his PC (as certain individuals are well-aware........hence the timing of the 'complaint') I'm sure he will be along shortly with a statement to the effect that OTG's existence will be ignored in future................ |
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| admin (no pm's please) |
What I do find disturbing is that there is not a single acknowledgement here of wrong doing.
There is no addressing the issue that threads inciting people to cause trouble on another forum are wrong. The lack of such a realization that this squabble has degenerated to an intolerable level is not having a good effect on your forums case. The correct response from you and your forums admins goes something like this.
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| Bravo |
Can you elaborate on that please? You don't have to go into personal details or anything, we just want this complaint to be treated 100% fairly for all parties concerned. |
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| Graham The Builder |
And the complainant is also very quiet at the moment as well. |
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| quixote |
But hang on a sec..............all the references I've made to the fact that action was taken against us in relation to a technically non-existant breach of T&C seem to have been ignored. If you expect admin from CW to make any redress for alleged wrong-doing then you have to accept that our response to the spirit in which the complaint was made actually bears up, otherwise it's merely a forelock-tugging exercise on the side of CW. Yes, I agree that the sensible course of action is to immediately apologise & give an assurance that there will no further incidences (to which I can almost certainly accede to on behalf of CW admin), but to do so with no attempt at defense is merely reinforcing the impression that any frivolous complaint such as this is going to be taken seriously, and will undoubtedly result in further complaints being made by OTG with even less credence. However, in the interests of keeping our forum available to our members, I've spoken to CW admin & have been granted leave to offer assurances on his behalf that the offending post will be removed, and that no further references will be made to the events that led to this afternoons paddy. Note: Bravo? To elaborate on my comment re' CW admin, the forum is open to guests and visitors, and we've been aware for some time that certain vistors are paying close attention to posts. In this instance, we're fairly sure that the complaint's been made with certain foreknowledge that the forum wll be suspended and that this will coincide with a period of time when the admin is unreachable, thereby denying members the use of the forum until such time as the complaint is resolved. Good job he wasn't in Australia on holiday, isn't it? |
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| admin (no pm's please) |
Very well. I have unsuspended at least for now. | ||||||
| Bravo |
Precisely the reason I asked, if he were, then it is quite likely that the forum would have been reopened until he got back (though that is of course Admins call to make and his only). |
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| quixote |
Thank you.
No doubt CW admin will add his comments once he's available |
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| Graham The Builder |
Thankyou for your understanding in this matter. | ||||||
| kaz |
I would like to say that we were not aware of the fact that CW was away from his PC today. The timing was to do with the reply to an e-mail that we had from MFF admin at 9.50 this morning. |
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| Ratman |
Having now returned from my trip I am totally bemused by what I find here. Admin, I agree the post that is causing the problem should and will be removed.
As you are no doubt aware as it was pointed out earlier by Quixote, we are a country forum with members who are actively involved in the pursuits they post about, I have been with several Countryways members fishing today and this evening, hence my absence. I do have a very active life in the country and for that reason I am not always on hand to read every post that is made or to rule with a dictatorship approach. I leave it in the trust of the members to be responsible for what they post, however it would appear I need to remove this post and remind the poster of the reason which I will do immediately. I see that the OTG admin had no knowledge of my absence today, strange really as they obviously seem to have spent rather a long time trawling my forum for anything else, I thought they may have noticed. Graham the Builder has already highlighted several complaining posts made previously by the OTG admin. One in particular was a complaint about me when I left their site, because of this pettiness actually, to form Countryways. At the time you were happy to lock the forum complaint and conclude it was a poor effort by them to try and cause trouble and it was merely an inter forum squabble, something which we witness here now. The posts already made have highlighted the lengths that OTG admin will go to to cause trouble to any forum they consider in competition with theirs. Buying domain names for another forum GWBT, asking another forum the access code so they can get access to the admin panel on GWBT, surely this is not proper or respectable behaviour from a forum admin ??. I have a message on my answerphone at present from the OTG admin that I will quite happilly copy on here word for word, or if you want to pm me I will pass my telephone number so as you can hear it for yourself. It is regarding a member who left their forum OTG recently after they had offended him with their admin ways and he posted the reason on Countryways, as when he tried to put it on OTG it disappeared very quickly. The message I have is aimed directly at me (which I had nothing to do with actually) claiming I was in breach of copyright and I must remove the post immediately etc. Further to which I was also indirectly accused of spamming their site (see their chat section Spamming thread) which may have possibly now been removed !! Furthermore, my wife was subjected to much harrassment from one of OTG moderators on MSN two nights ago. I also have a complaint from a member on Countryways that he recieved an unwanted and unfounded email from OTG admin very recently accusing him of trying to join their site as Postman Pat. I too have had several people try to join here with bogus names and proxy addressess. I am quite happy to dig out the details if required. I could go on but I will save them for an official complaint if that is the procedure we have to follow. As quixote has highlighted, on many occasions we have had cause to complain but have not, it seems perhaps I should from now on. As you can see this is no more than a petty forum squabble, we have been on the recieving end of much similar content and jibes but have been more mature in the matter and feel we do not need to tell teacher everytime someone calls us a name. From now on as your request, then I will. I do not believe we have contrvened the T& C other than the post that will be removed and it would appear that nothing is now suggesting so. The admin from OTG are banned from posting on CW the same as we are banned from posting on OTG. They have even made their forum unavailable to guests to view, and have made another section only available to those members making over 50 posts (Free Forum ?????) I suggest if our petty toying does not please them then like any TV channel, if you don't like it watch the other side. If CW offends them so then why do they seem to have this urge to be monitoring us and trawling through our posts 24 hours a day ???? Like I say a petty forum squabble. Am off to remove offending post now. |
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| admin (no pm's please) |
Well as you say petty forum squabble (though not so petty really), taken oven the line by one totally unacceptable post.
Providentially our phone lines are out, and are going to stay that way for another day or three as someone has dug too deep a hole and wiped BT off the map for a large chunk around So as I'm not going to spend my mobile bill on this, I'm not going to be listening to answer phone messages.
You both have large and viable forums, it should not be too hard for you to ignore each other. Surely you should all see how unattractive this sort of thing is to new members stumbling across your forums? I am going to lock this now and hope I have heard the last of it. |
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| admin (no pm's please) |
I'm aware the admin has been away, so I am not taking action immediately, but I see the thread:
http://countryways.myfreeforum.org/Email_Harrassment_about4889.html is still an announcement. I must insist on seeing a commitment to put this squabble into the past by letting such threads die or preferably removing them all together. The clock is ticking... |
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